Show #207 - Ryno, Rocks, Railo Rants, and Scott (Box)

ColdBox , ColdFusion , Railo , Frameworks , Adobe , SOTR , Conferences , News Add comments

In this week's show Dave and Scott discuss the Ryno unicycle, Scotch on the Rocks, a Railo fanboy manifesto, coldfusion UI, knockout.js, growl notifcations and why no one listens to them.  Luis Majano stops by to talk about the "Into the Box" conference and bash Scott of course. Rants a plenty with a little wafffle on top! Its quite a show this week!


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Show Topic Links:


Scotch On The Rocks schedule - June 5/6, 2014 | Edinburgh

Railo is apparently better.

I'm not going to tell you to stop using ColdFusion UI tags anymore…

CFUI The right way

Nifty Growl type notifications for the web

Why don’t people listen to us?


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25 responses to “Show #207 - Ryno, Rocks, Railo Rants, and Scott (Box)”

  1. Randy Says:
    Heads up guys, all of your show topic links are wrong. Unless of course the Scotch On The Rocks schedule should link to a Gizmodo article. ;)
  2. Chris Says:

    Thanks for the heads up! Result of a really green producer. All fixed now.
  3. Billy Cravens Says:
    A point you missed discussing Railo: Adobe will announce a feature at a conference, etc, and then that feature will be in Railo bleeding edge shortly. So while Railo may "ship" first, they may still be copying, since they do "alpha" releases in the public eye. (Specific example that comes to mind: REST showed off at MAX '11, and was available in Railo 4 which was available before CF10 public beta)

    To be clear, I think Railo is great, and run alot of production code in it. However, if Adobe announces a feature before Railo does, it's unfair to attribute the innovation to Railo.
  4. Adam Cameron Says:
    Blimey. I don't think it was one of your better... erm... "exercises in catharsis", TBH, but still: it's good you got all that off your chests.

    Obviously no offence taken.

    The rest of the podcast was good stuff though. Cheers lads, and keep it up!

  5. Andy Allan Says:
    Re: not having the SotR schedule on yet; it will be there in time, it's just the fun of getting it laid out nicely in a responsive format like the rest of the site. So sticking it on Lanyrd for now was the easiest route (plus it's still a 1st draft).
  6. Mary Jo Says:
    Wow, been awhile since I listened to the podcast and that was a pretty brutal airing of grievances against Adam and the Railo team. Not that I necessarily disagree with them, but this is hardly unusual kind of stuff. Do you want to argue that Adobe doesn't "oversell" their products when comparing to competitors as well?

    Anyway I was also surprised by the comment about Adobe "leading the way" with ORM. Besides the fact that there were some good ORM frameworks in play that IMO were truly the ones that lead the way as I recall Railo had implemented Hibernate into their product before CF came out with any ORM features. Certainly they have since moved over to match Adobe's ORM implementation to make code compatible across both platforms, but pretty sure they had ORM features before ACF did.
  7. Scott Stroz Says:
    Mary Jo - Built in ORM support with Hibernate was added in ColdFusion 9, which was released on October 5, 2009. Built in ORM support with Hibernate was added in Railo 3.3, which was released on November 3, 2011 - almost 2 years later.

    To be clear when I was speaking of ORM, I was not referring to Transfer or Reactor, but built in OMR support.
  8. Sean Corfield Says:
    FWIW, ORM support was in publicly available builds of 3.1.2 at least, since a bug fix for session auto-commit was in which appeared in April 2010. Further digging found a call for beta testers for ORM in March 2010.

    So, yes, ColdFusion had ORM first and Railo had held off implementing it until late in the ColdFusion cycle so they wouldn't end up with an incompatible implementation. The gap for it being available to users was a lot less than two years tho'...

    I'm very glad to see Adobe and Railo both happy to implement each other's features so that CFML developers have more choice and a more compatible landscape to target with portable code. I don't really care which gets there first on any given feature, as long as they both get there - and that is a recent change for Adobe that they now seem willing to implement a feature the same way as Railo, rather than in some incompatible way.

    That said, I've been using Railo pretty much exclusively for nearly five years now and have a lot of code that wouldn't run on CF10 (but might run on CF11 it seems). For my open source work, I have to be conservative and stay compatible back to CF9.0.2 so it's all fairly irrelevant.

    I won't comment on the ranting nature of cfHour as I've voiced my thoughts on that aspect several times in past comments... :)
  9. Sean Corfield Says:
    You want the "over a dozen steps" to install ColdFusion?

    That's the site put together by Adobe's own community experts.
  10. Mary Jo Says:
    Well, Gert could probably clarify it for us, but I just remember very clearly seeing him present on Hibernate features in Railo, perhaps as a beta version, prior to CF9 coming out. So I did some more digging and found this blog post in 2008 that mentions it as well.
    Of course, none of this is to rebut the whole point that both engines have borrowed from each other. I just really had a very strong memory of seeing Gert present ORM features in Railo prior to CF9.
  11. Scott Stroz Says:
    Mary Jo - I don't see any mention of ORM for either Railo or ColdFusion in that post - other than some of the comments. Besides demoing something is not the same as it actually being usable in the product.

    I think it is a bit unfair to use the final release of ColdFusion 9 as the 'starting point' for Adobe's implementation of ORM, but use a beta version of Railo as the 'starting point' for Railo's implementation of ORM. The comparison should be final release to final release or beta to beta, not a mix. It was a lot longer than 6 months in between.

    Sean - good point about the 12 steps. I admit I was wrong there. But I also do not think it should take to step 7 before you actually execute the download.
  12. Mary Jo Says:
    I'm referring to this comment: "if Adobe is working behind the scenes on some of the features that Railo has announced (such as Hibernate, caching or clustering)". This statement shows that Railo had at that time already announced inclusion of Hibernate (ORM) in their engine. Your comment was that Railo got the idea of ORM from the CF9 release. My point is they did not, they had already implemented it at that point. Not sure what "fairness" has to do with any of this, it's about accuracy of what you are claiming.
  13. Mary Jo Says:
    Keep in mind that Adobe is always much more tight lipped about new releases until much closer to release, while Railo being open source particularly in the past was often showing those of us that followed their presentations new features long before they were ready for release.
  14. Sean Corfield Says:
    Well, we can certainly go public beta to public beta - which was less than a year. The main point here - which you seem to be deliberately missing - is that you're trying to make it seem like Railo was years behind and never innovated anything, and other folks are trying to point out you're so blinded by trying shut down any praise of Railo that you're once again not doing any research.

    You - and Dave - both overreacted spectacularly to an opinion piece on someone's blog.

    You often do it. Instead of sticking to news, and facts, and doing some research, you instead create a bloated rant that is full of misinformation and misunderstandings and you make yourselves look pretty dumb at times. Overall, cfHour has gotten better since Scott joined - Dave's uninformed rants about open source and endless other stuff he neither likes nor understands tend to get tempered by Scott's more accepting nature - but you still rant and rage about things you've formed opinions on without doing any research. At times you're a great comedy duo, but as a useful source of technical information, you guys really don't so so well...

    I could go through and counter almost every piece of your response to Adam's blog post but there really isn't much point. You'll just do it again with some other blog post that gets up your collective Adobe-loving noses :)

    At least you both seem to realize you overstepped the line (I loved the comment about pole-vaulting over the line and building a house on the other side). If something you read online upsets you both so much, probably the last thing you should do is spend twenty minutes ranting and raging on air about it. Seriously. Just go write a comment on the blog instead.
  15. Mary Jo Says:
    I guess the point is that I agree that of anything that you took issue with, the argument of who innovates or comes out with this or that idea is indeed not a particularly useful one to make. Too many times, these are hardly unique or ground-breaking ideas of things to add and are being developed by different groups at the same time.
  16. roger tubby Says:
    I've listened to a couple of these broadcasts before but this was absolutely uncomfortable to hear.

    I don't have any position ACF vs. Railo vs. BD but your tone in this podcast was disgusting.

    If you somehow represent Adobe, you should be fired.
  17. Scott Stroz Says:
    Sean - I never said Railo was 'years behind Adobe and never innovated'. Even during the rant I said, a few times at least, that both Adobe and Railo have been innovative at times (and they have each implemented functionality that was innovated by the other). I think they both need to continue doing so, as well. I think, right now, they both need each other to continue to be successful. I am not sure, at this point, one could really survive without the other - and by that I mean the products, not the companies :D.

    I know it is hard to believe, but I do not have an issue with Railo. I like that it exists. I like that sometimes they make Adobe play 'catch up'. I like that it is a viable option - especially when cost becomes a factor. I have not used Railo on any large projects - mostly just playing around, testing stuff, locally. Given the fact that our team at work is moving away from the 'Adobe stack', it is less likely that I will use it outside of any personal projects. That does not mean I never would use it nor recommend it.

    I do plan on trying to run my golf league site (which I talk about a lot on the show) on Railo, locally, to see a) if the code, as written, is compatible with both CF & Railo (from what I have read in the documentation, about Railo ORM, I feel safe assuming it will) and 2) to see if there is a performance boost (though, the site gets little traffic aside from myself and those manage the scoring for the league). Assuming that goes well, I intend to use Railo on my personal server and uninstall ColdFusion.

    Roger - Yep, I agree, our tone was uncalled for, inappropriate and unprofessional. It was uncomfortable for me to listen to, as well. I lost count how many times I cringed at what we said and, more importantly, how we said it. However, our opinions are our own, and not that of our respective employers - neither of which is Adobe.
  18. Scott Stroz Says:
    One thing I wish Adobe would absolutely follow in Railo's footsteps on is to make it optional to supply name, email, etc to download the products.

    Oh, and maybe their sense of humor - peep the place holder text.
  19. Scott Stroz Says:
    Interesting.....I filled out the form after download for Railo started and it was tagged as spam - the only text boxen I filled out was name and email address. I wonder what they are trying to tell me......
  20. Billy Cravens Says:
    It's pretty easy to bypass the Railo download form. (change the URL to + value in item url var) Obviously you don't want to negatively impair their ability to capture statistics on downloads, but sometimes the direct download is preferred (I do it for Chef recipes).
  21. Sean Corfield Says:
    @Billy, or simply ignore the form - the software downloads regardless. The form is shown AFTER you click to start downloading the software so you don't have to fill it in at all.
  22. Raymond Camden Says:
    FYI - Scott, the title of my blog post had nothing to do with you. *I* have been known to tell folks to not use CFUI w/o giving a good alternative so it was wholly meant for me (and any reader I may have done that too).
  23. Scott Stroz Says:
    Lies! All your blog posts are about me. Always.
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