Show #198 - Cutter Chimes In

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In this week's show Dave and Matt are joined by Cutter Blades to discuss his blog post "What's wrong with ColdFusion". Listener warning.. this episode audio is messed up. Apologies.


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4 responses to “Show #198 - Cutter Chimes In”

  1. Michael Zock Says:
    PDF generation was actually a pretty good example. Right now it's achieved thet ough a half-assed implementation of an ancient version of the iText library. Just an embarassment, considering we're talking about the home of Acrobat.

    Many shops will simply buy Enterprise edition licenses because of the way the Standard edition hs been castrated just because they can.

    Things like the artificial CFThread limit are why we moved to Railo instead, where our money can buy us worthwhile extensions and professional support that will actually respond within the same decade.
  2. Andy K Says:
    Great show! I think all of the suggestions on Cutter's post and in this show are fantastic and are needed (e.g. package management, modularity, etc.)

    However, I don't really think that these are the things that are keeping people from adopting CF in the first place? Nor do I think that people are saying that they are going to move off of CF because there are some old, cruddy UI tags still in there that they don't use anyways.

    The cost always has been and always will be the critical issue here. As Scott alluded to: I think if every other positive action is taken - and taken overnight - by Adobe, I don't think it will be enough. Don't get me wrong: they SHOULD do these things and as a community we should positively push them to do these things, but I think that taking an attitude of "well Adobe needs to charge for this product as they are a for profit company..." etc. is short-sighted on both the part of Adobe and this community.

    You tell people that they need to stop programming for CF 4.5 and that they should upgrade - but they need to spend thousands to do that. They need to say we need to re-write this app to use modern day programming but we need to spend a boat load to even have the ability to do that. I'd say that if I am going to pay for a re-write from procedural 4.5 code to OO CF 10 code, then I may as well re-write it in Ruby, PHP, Python, Java, whatever so that I no longer need to pay an exorbitant amount of money just to take advantage of the newest language constructs.

    I truly believe that Adobe's attitude and business model around this product need to change for 2 reasons.

    First, if you step back a bit, you are talking about rallying the troops and the mother-ship to get them to bring CF up to speed with what other FOSS currently does today. Granted, Adobe does appear to be listening and it's wonderful for those who are already committed to the Adobe stack that we can - in A FEW YEARS and at a cost of several thousand dollars - have what many others already have right now for free.

    There's just no reason whatsoever that a new project should start with CF if it offers less than other technologies (arguably, currently true), has fewer resources available as far as OSS projects and developers (currently true) and has a cost barrier to entry (currently true).

    Generally speaking, no one is going to look at a for pay option if - at best - it only offers the same as what is offered for free? And we are only talking about bringing it up to par in a few versions (maybe)? No new dev is going to say "hey, I think I'll start my new project in this proprietary language that offers less and costs a lot" when they can do MORE for free. It just makes no sense.

    So, if changing the pricing structure is completely off the table, then the original question should be rephrased: what can CF do to make it so MUCH better than all of the alternative FOSS options so that it clearly justifies its significant cost barrier to entry? I do not think this is feasible, I do not think that there is an answer to this question.

    So far - everything mentioned has only been what Adobe can do to bring it in line with what others are already doing now.

    The second issue is Adobe's attitude toward CF and the community. You rightly point out that people don't contribute enough of their code back to the community, people don't want to share, etc. ... but I have to believe part of that attitude comes from Adobe and the community leaders themselves.

    Just on this episode when Cutter was asked if there was a response from Adobe he had to play coy ("I cannot confirm nor deny...") For the most part, this is the general attitude of Adobe toward this product - it's closed lipped. I get why, but it's a problem and it's a HUGE issue.

    People don't want secrecy, devs don't want to sit and wait for a big announcement hoping against hope that Adobe is going to introduce feature x or fix bug y... they want an open discussion of what is being worked on so that they can feel comfortable knowing what's coming down the pipeline. They want INPUT and influence into the future of the tools that they use for their livelihoods. Every time I hear someone tout the published roadmap for the next 2 releases of CF as an answer to this I laugh... if anyone thinks that is a roadmap then... hell... I don't even know how to respond to that???

    And for all of the community leaders talking about how everyone needs to share more... why is it that they are holed-up in this "super secret, may or may not exist mailing list" that you guys always mention? Frankly, that's just another example of the CF culture of insularism (is that even a word?) and closed-off mentality... "participate and grow the community, but we're going to participate in our own little subset over here so that the noise level stays dialed down..." "Do as we say, but not as we do..." etc.
  3. Gary F Says:
    Just listened to the show. I started on CF 5 on a team on 1 (me). When I moved to a new team (govt) learned that there was a good bit I never knew. I would say some of the transition was easy, some was painful.

    In this area, the opportunities are limited, in order to eat, I had to learn other languages. Probably good for me but definitely painful. (Learned Java and Flex, 'Flex died' and Java is very big and discriminating on developers!

    I often look at and their programming index, CFML /Script are barely mentioned. Powerbuilder has fallen completely off the list. As a measure of health, CF is not doing well, can anything be done to raise its prominence there?
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