Show #160 - On The Edge

HTML5 , ColdFusion , Adobe Add comments

In this show, Dave and Scott discuss the ColdFusion 10 mandatory update, excellent customer service, one developer's move from ColdFusion to node.js and Adobe's recent Create The Web tour and release of all things 'Edge'.

The winner of the Fusion Reactor #naughtybits competition is also announced.

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Show Topic Links:


Why I moved from ColdFusion to Node.js

ColdFusion 10 support on Windows 8 and OS X Mountain Lion

CF on Windows 8 and Java 7

Adobe & HTML


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11 responses to “Show #160 - On The Edge”

  1. Adam Cameron Says:
    Hey guys.
    Man, you guys are cruel with your "why wasn't I drinking Guinness if I was Ireland?" comment. It wasn't *my* decision! I'm on doctor's orders not to drink @ the moment. Goddammit. It *sux*.

    That said, I'm over there every coupla weeks (family), so I do get my fair share of the "local flavour", as you put it. Just not between now and Xmas.


    Keep up the good work with the podcast.

  2. Billy Cravens Says:
    Thanks for the good word on my comments re the node guy. (I think node rocks for certain tasks, but people trying to use it like Apache or Rails are missing the point)

    Something to consider in the CF10/Mountain Lion discussion is whether new machines ship with Mountain Lion (I honestly don't know - Apple's site is unclear)
  3. Andy Guiness Says:
    I'd have to disagree with the CF10/Win 8/Mtn Lion discussion. 99% of the problems people have with CF on a new OS is installing it... i.e the installer itself craps out.

    While I get that there could be incompatibilities with a new OS, and while perhaps we disagree on how soon it should take for Adobe to certify a release, there's no excuse whatsoever for not having installers ready for these new environments. At the very least, Adobe ought to be active in proposing ways to workaround an installation until such a time as a certified release can be made.

    One of our divisions develops a couple of extensions for Firefox and they are working on alpha and beta versions of that browser to ensure that the extensions will work/not break once the newer versions are released. We have been developing Metro apps for over a year... MSFT makes any information a dev needs available to even an individual, let alone a company the size of Adobe, so I fail to see how they cannot be ready out of the gate for these launches.

    Coming out with a statement that they'll have a compatible release in 3-6 months (or whatever the time frame is...) just reeks of indifference for a free product, let alone one a company drops $8k on.

    I also disagree with the statements re: when one ought to upgrade an OS. While I completely agree on a wait/see approach for a production server environment, I not only think that you're off on denigrating people who upgrade, in fact, I'd say the opposite: people in technology ought to be running and testing the bleeding edge versions of their tools and pushing their vendors to get their products up to snuff. I'd go so far as to say it's bad business not to do so?

    We run load tests, unit tests, regression tests, compatibility tests, UX and UA tests, cross-platform and cross-browser compatibility tests for HTML/CSS and javascript. We preach all of this as best practice... so I am not so sure why you'd suggest that people who update to the latest OS and/or tools are stupid? They ought to be testing this stuff earlier rather than later.
  4. Scott Stroz Says:
    Andy -

    We did not suggest that people who update to the latest OS are stupid, we suggested that people who are stupid are the ones who update to the latest OS, on the day its released, who expect there to be no problems, and complain like spoiled children when there are problems.

    There is a way to handle things when you upgrade to a new OS and discover issues. Some people found ways around the issue and posted them online for the world to see. Others simply slammed Adobe, cried 'foul' and sat in their corner and pouted.

    If I remember correctly, ColdFusion 10 was able to be installed, but the issue was that the connector for Apache failed. This was due to changes Apple made with their implementation of Apache...NOT ColdFusion.

    I will agree that Adobe should have been the source of workarounds until Mountain Lion was 'officially' supported. However, the CF team has a finite number of resources. A decision had to be made on the priorities of tasks to be done. I am OK with support for new OSs being put on the back burner so they focus on other priorities.
  5. Andy Guiness Says:
    Scott - I apologize if I mischaracterized your statements.

    I'll still have to disagree with you. I am in no way suggesting that it was Adobe's fault that Apple changed something re: Apache... just that Adobe should have been aware of those changes early on and been working on a fix alongside them.

    MOST software companies do this. CF only runs on a handful of OS's: one is completely open source, another (MSFT) is completely "open" in their process and in their desire to work with software devs - especially those the size of Adobe, and the 3rd (APL) is open enough to have had the issue you speak of fixed before the ML launch.

    I think for $8k that's not asking too much at all...

    Anyway, I'm happy to agree to disagree on this. Love the show - thx!
  6. Scott Stroz Says:
    Regardless of the price of software, I am OK with it as long as the software works with the supported operation systems that were publicly available when the software was released.

    Anything beyond that is gravy.
  7. Sean Coyne Says:
    Sweet I won! :) Thanks guys!
  8. Sean Corfield Says:
    Man, you guys were mean to Faisal! I think most of his criticisms of the state of ColdFusion are valid (although I wouldn't agree with his choice of Node.js). From his name, you might reasonably infer he's not going to be as eloquent as Joe Rinehart, but you really went to town on him and I think you're out of order this time.

    You kept ripping on being able to build a web server with Node.js - but that's not what Faisal said and just shows your own biases against running JavaScript on the server (also echoed by Nic Tunney in his comment). I don't like JavaScript but I know a lot of folks who've been very successful building web apps on Node.js so it's working just fine for a lot of people.

    As for the issue of startups and ColdFusion, yup, I've lived thru that too. After I left Adobe, I was involved with a ColdFusion-based startup and we stumped around a lot of VCs trying to get funding. Justifying using a proprietary technology that has per-server license fees was a constant thorn in my side during those pitches. VCs want to understand your business plans for success and they will pick up on increasing costs that they view as unnecessary - when there are plenty of great free technologies out there. They might also ask about your plans for cloud deployment - something we couldn't even do with ColdFusion in that timeframe (ACF9 was the first release to support cloud deployment).

    We all love CFML (yes, I still love it!) but let's not be blind to its downsides, especially in this era of commodity open source technologies and cheap cloud deployment. There are lots of JVM-based PaaS providers but running CFML on them is not always viable (even Railo's smaller WAR footprint pushes the limits of the free accounts, for example). That Adobe have a roadmap for deploying ColdFusion on cloud services other than AWS in 2014 is good - but years too late. Back in 2008 I was an Enterprise ColdFusion customer who had to tell Adobe that we were developing with Railo Community Edition because we couldn't deploy ACF to AWS. That was not a pleasant conversation :(
  9. Sean Corfield Says:
    BTW, loved your comments about Adobe Edge Everything... I'd been watching their evolving product line with a similar sense of puzzlement and deja vu. Adobe's whole born-again HTML5 zealotry makes me cringe and I think it smacks of desperation, but if it keeps them alive and helps them build lean, mean, leading edge tools for web development, instead of bloatware, great. And if that profitability continues to fund ColdFusion, that's a nice bonus.
  10. Mark Mandel Says:
    Late to the party, and half way through the podcast, but giving a huge +1 to what Sean is saying re: the rant against Faisal and Node.js.

    CFML doesn't have this lock on ROI that we were taught to believe 10 years ago. There are multiple areas in which it falls down in that respect and FOSS solutions are clearly a winner (aspects like syntax, scalability, community size and libraries available, plus more). The entire landscape has changed since then.

    Admittedly I've only listened to half of this episode, but the beginning made me so aggravated I had to come on here and place a comment.
  11. Scott Stroz Says:
    Mark - I have been pretty outspoken on the show about how CF lost whatever ROI edge it may have had in the past.

    Listen to the next show, we discuss Sean's comments - but be warned, you still may not like what you hear. :D

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